What happened at our downtown grocery store this week?

ICE agents violently abducted a man from work. We talk about it.

Transcript:

LB: I'm Laura Bergus, and I am a member of Iowa City's city council. I'm here with Oliver Weilein, because we decided we have a lot of conversations about things that are happening in our community, and we should maybe memorialize those and share them with the public for a higher level of transparency in government.

OW: And I always find myself not wanting to post about so many things that are happening or that it's being worked on in council or current topical events in the community because there's just so much in and I don't want to leave anything out. And so, then I end up just finding myself not being transp--or I don't want to say not being transparent, but just like, not being as communicative as I would like. So I was hoping, you know, since Laura and I have these conversations all the time, if we just do this, and put out a weekly, monthly, whatever it ends up being, then people can listen to it and get a lot of inside information, what's going on in the city, what's going on in our brains, and maybe our personal lives. I don't know.

LB: Yeah.

OW: And hopefully they'll engage and reach out and be like, that was stupid. Or wow, I learned a thing. Or you guys are so smart and awesome. We'll see. We'll get a bunch of those. Yeah.

LB: Okay, so today is September 26th. And yesterday on September 25th, three ICE agents went into Bread Garden; and what we heard today was told a manager there that they needed to speak with someone who was in the kitchen because they were going to remove his ankle monitor and he came out and was wrestled to the ground and taken into custody. And there's some videos circulating of that, including one that you posted, Oliver, that then you're getting some real heat for people don't understand what's going on there.

OW: Yeah, not the brightest tools in the shed are engaging with that one. It got retweeted by like Libs of TikTok and things.

LB: Oh, okay.

OW: So, yeah, I mean, that, it's not the first time that's happened to me. It happened to me when Matt Walsh was in town and I was just covering the event, posting videos. So, I mean, that is, you know, that's what that person, that's what that account is for. They accuse the left of stochastic terrorism all the time, but that is actually what that is.

LB: Right.

OW: They know that people are actually going to get a slew of death threats and hate mail and hate speech directed at them, violence directed at them when they post something. Usually it's factually incorrect, very provably so, but people don't take the time to, they don't take the time to check. because why would you? You know? And so what happened this time is: I just posted a video, of the, you know, violent arrest that that happened at the Bread Garden here in Iowa City. And I just reposted the video that was posted online and just said, hey, this happened in our community. And I think I called the ice agents, I think I just said, “Gestapo freaks” or something, you know? So they took issue with that and think that that is somehow going to incite violence towards IC officers. And personally, I just think, you know, it's very easy not to get called to Gestapo.

LB: It's a very low bar.

OW: It's a low bar. You know, like so many of us don't get called the Gestapo every day.

LB: Yeah.

OW: You know, it is so easy. So if you don't want to be called the Gestapo, I would heavily suggest quitting your job as an ICE agent and not, not, you know, not doing it if the boot fits, you know?

LB: Right.

OW: And so, yeah, I posted that. So, definitely getting a lot of, you know, death threats from people who are, um very, uh vocal about, “oh, your rhetoric!” and, “causes violence.” And it's like, okay, well, you are saying you're going to come to my house and kill me.

LB: Yeah.

OW: So, you know, but, uh, yeah, so that's, that's happening. It broke containment, didn't realize that that would happen. It happens every once in a while. But, uh, yeah, that's just in my personal world.

LB: Yeah, one thing I thought was interesting about that was the full city council has gotten several emails, highlighting what you said online and presenting them to us, your colleagues, as if we should be very concerned in the way that they are.

OW: Right.

LB: And that was, that's new for me. And certainly was like an interesting take because I think we all know who you are and what you intend by the words that you say. And I'm pretty sure, let's see, was the full council at the protest we just came from? I don't, I didn't see Josh there, but I think maybe six of the seven of us were there. And pretty sure everybody was chanting “Fuck ICE!” together. So, you're not alone.

OW: Yeah, for sure. I mean, the county supervisor got up there and said, “Fuck ICE.” People started chanting, “fuck ICE,” because fuck ICE, you know?

LB: Yeah.

OW: And, we're allowed to say that. It's free speech. Sorry, cry about it snowflakes, you know?

LB: I see what you're doing there.

OW: Yeah, yeah. But I've dealt with death threats before for various things in the past. Exact same type of situation. Yeah. It's funny. I'm actually getting a call right now from somebody from Massachusetts, so I bet they're going to leave a voicemail. And it's going to be really funny. They think I'm the person who filmed the video. And the person who filmed the video was, you know, upset and calling them racist and, you know, saying, fuck you and saying, I'm a combat vet. Like, uh, you know, show me your badge. Identify yourselves and they don't, you know, uh, as far as I can see in the video. And, they think I'm that person. So I've gotten like dozens of voicemails and messages being like, “you're not a real combat vet. That's stolen valor.” And I'm like, hey, you got me there. I'm not a combat vet. But, you know, like I said, they're not sending their brightest.

LB: Another thing that I thought was interesting is--going back to the only messages I've received about it so far--are to the city council email, but like people posting--they're like doxing us to ourselves, right? So, they're posting screenshots of our personal contact information that is available on the City of Iowa City website, which is a very common thing when like intended as a threat.

OW: Right.

LB: Like intended as: “I know who you are, I know where to find you, I know how to reach you. Look, here's your photograph.” And there's just something so ironic and bizarre as an elected official. And, you know, I've lived under my own name on the internet for a very, very, very long time. And so, you know, I, like, I do not hide my identity or where I live. I've lived in the same house forever, you know? So, there's just something really weird about seeing that reflected back at us as like a, “I know who you are.”

OW: Yeah. Mm.

LB: It's like, nope, we definitely signed up for this. I mean, not specifically this, but the being identifiable and available for contact.

OW: Yeah, I mean, there's a reason I have my personal cell phone number there.

LB: Same.

OW: It's because I want people to be able to reach out to me in the most direct way. Make sure I don't miss an email or something. You know, I want my direct phone number out there. And, you know, it's a price you pay. Sometimes you get, sometimes you get troglodytes calling you and calling you a bunch of slurs. And, you know, uh, that for me at this point, it's just funny. Yeah. Just, uh, And I don't think that's like cope at this point. At one point, that would have been like, oh, this is actually freaking me out, but now I'm just like, you people are stupid. And you know, you actually are just kind of like, uh, I think a public commenter said this at a city council meeting when we passed the trans rights resolution. They just said, these people are just the equivalent of like a bunch of teen teenagers in a big truck, like going down the road and calling you the f-slur, you know?

LB: Yeah.

OW: And it's just like, oh, I've, people have done that to me my whole life, so I don't give a fuck.

LB: Yeah.

OW: So, yeah, I mean, I don't wish--you know, it's pretty stupid that I'm like, “Oh, yeah, I'm accustomed to this. This is normal.”

LB: Yeah, I was going to say, “Hey, thanks for bringing the cesspool of the internet to Iowa City city council.”

OW: For sure. But, hey, you know, I will say, it's not something that I try to do intentionally, but sometimes it just breaches containment.

LB: Yeah. Mm-hm. So, the event we just came from on the ped mall was, I think, promoted as a press conference from a Escucha Mi Voz. It was a very protest-y vibe and feel. And the people I talked to at least were saying things like, this is different, you know, like now it hits home. Like now, now we have to do something. What's your take about that? Like, do you feel like it feels different now?

OW: It feels different in--I think for a lot of folks, it doesn't feel like it hits home until it really feels like it hits home. And for Iowa City, this is like the literal dead center of Iowa City daily life, which is downtown Iowa City, at a very popular grocery store. And it is places where, you know, there's a park right across the street where a bunch of people are there with their kids and people are going to Ragstock and they're going to the record store and they're just downtown all the time. And then to just know that somebody was just working at Bread Garden was just taken in a violent way. I think it naturally will just bring it home closer to you if you have like a personal connection or a personal string attached to the location as opposed to when you just tell people, yeah, out in this residential neighborhood that you don't frequent, somebody was taken. It's just, and you can know that that's terrible and you can know that that's awful and you don't want that to happen. But I think once it gets personalized into your daily life, then it just, uncontrollably will hit you different. in ways that you don't even realize it could hit you. So yeah, I mean, for me, I would say it hit different for me because of all the things I said. Because I'm just in that area constantly. And, you know, I feel like I'm someone who's actively engaged in all of these conversations when they happen around the community and I go to ICE check-ins and all of these other events. But, you know, it still hit me in a different way.

LB: Yeah.

OW: In ways that you don't expect.

LB: Yeah, I think most of us can, in Iowa City, can sort of see ourselves in the Bread Garden, right? Like, we've been there. Like any of us could have could have been in that moment. So what do you think about like, people are reaching out to me with a few different kind of interesting angles on questions, right? The main thrust of all the questions that I've received so far are what is Iowa City going to do? And, you know, I, in the video even, there's, you know, people calling 911 saying call 911. I think people have expressed concern to me that having someone be snatched up in this way might encourage, you know, just random people who want to kidnap folks, to come and do this.

OW: And that has happened before.

LB: Yeah.

OW: Yeah. People impersonating ICE officers because it's easy to.

LB: Right. And like we're saying, you know, cops don't have--and federal agents don't have--a legal obligation to say who they are or show their identification. It would be amazing if they did. But, um, yeah, yeah, we're all left guessing. Is this just someone who wants a fight / is targeting a person, or is this actually someone with authority to do what they're doing? And then, and then what? But I, it has been really, I've just been struggling today with like how, what we saw and how much it impacts us and how personal it feels and like how we connect that to other things that are happening in our community, how we connect that to, you know, the way in which we address issues that come up. Our mayor gave some comments at the rally today and said something along the lines of, you know, “This person wasn't a criminal. We need to deal with criminals.” And that was hard for me to hear. Like, I don't, you know, I really--I think arrest is inherently violent and dehumanizing, and I feel like we spend a lot of time pretending that it's not. So.

OW: Yeah, I agree. You know, and I just think that that's how people are, you know, when you live in a system that's so normalized, like, um, you know, the quote-unquote “rule of law” that we have is meant first to protect capital in private property in the, you know, in that sense of the term. But and then it also, you know, justifies itself by saying, well, I mean, there's all this crime and instability in our communities, and we need to address it in a way. And it's really hard for them to think outside the box of other solutions to crime in communities, to dysfunction, to harm that happens in communities. So, you know, if someone's commit to crime, that to them, that automatically, you know, makes that person a little bit less human. That's how it seems. Or less worthy of human dignity if someone has committed a crime, regardless of the severity, you know? Because, I mean, someone who comes here illegally technically has committed a crime, you know? Like, in a way, like, yeah, it's like a civil infraction or whatever. But, uh, broken the law, yeah. And like, who cares? You know, we all break the law all the time. You know, I jaywalked walking over here.

LB: Whoa, whoa, whoa.

OW: Like, I'm sure I went five miles per hour over the speed limit the other day. I didn't have--I didn't update my tags for a month. And that's the type of infraction that, you know, they're talking about for someone who crosses the border illegally. But if someone crosses a border, quote unquote, “illegally,” and then does something else that humans do. Humans make mistakes. Humans, harm each other. So to think that if someone comes here illegally and then, you know, steals something or, uh, you know, anything. And they think that because they came here illegally, that means that this person is not worthy of dignity.

LB: Right.

OW: And whatever semblance of fairness in our quote unquote “justice system” we have, they think that that strips them of all human rights, of all dignity, of humanity, and you just need to throw them into the ocean. That's what these people think.

LB: Well, so I want to push back on that a little bit because I think, you know, even just a week ago, we had our city council meeting about the joint law enforcement authority, right? And you and I both voted against that, but the majority of the council voted for it. And one of the things we heard from the majority of council was, “I'm going to read to you the criminal offenses of people who are currently being held in the Johnson County jail,” which really was not relevant to the question of us, you know, having a joint authority. I think that goes more to the question of should people be in jail? And, you know, most people who are held in the Johnson County jail are held for a very, very, very short period of time. Most cases are charged high and pleaded down. And then yesterday, I had this experience where I spent some hours at Shelter House doing an expungement clinic. So, Iowa Legal Aid coordinates volunteer lawyers to come in and help people eliminate certain types of offenses from their criminal records. And every time it's just heartbreaking. Like, most of the offenses that people need to get off of their permanent records are dismissals of cases. So, when a case is dismissed, that means that there wasn't sufficient evidence to actually have, you know, for that person to have committed a crime. And nevertheless, most employers and landlords see something like that and don't get as far as the fact that it was dismissed means, yeah, that probably didn't happen. And so just knowing that, like to the point of, yes, we think people who commit crimes are less human, but also a lot of the people that are caught up in the system haven't committed crimes.

OW: Yeah.

LB: And if they did, it wouldn't, you know, it shouldn't warrant--folks I was talking to yesterday…there was one woman who just kept saying, “I lost my crib,” you know, like lost her house. Now she's in school to be a nurse. She can't find a job in nursing. She showed me the rejection that she got from an employer. And it noted that there was an assault that was either deferred or dismissed, which those are two very different things You know, luckily, we could get that expunged because it was dismissed. But yeah, it was someone who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And these clinics are like, that's all we see again and again and again and again. And so I, I just want us to be honest about that. Like that's what I want. I think people in Iowa City here are smart. I really do believe that. And sometimes we get in our own way because we must know best, because we're smart and we're well educated. And I think, like, can we get to having the real conversation? Which isn't like, you know, was this person who was snatched from the Bread Garden? Like, we heard that he had a child who was a U.S. citizen. Well, if he hadn't, would it have been okay?

OW: Yeah.

LB: Like, no, it wouldn't, it still wouldn't have been okay. No.

OW: So I think people kind of have this urge or tendency to want to create the perfect victim, and it never exists. And all the things said about Jorge, who was the man who was taken from Bread Garden. I mean, it was true. Like he was beloved. Like he has a wife and a son who he came to them to try to support, and he was working and he had no criminal record. Like, you know, those are all just true things about him, but to hold that up as the reason why this shouldn't have happened to him.

LB: Or that it makes it worse.

OW: Or that it makes it worse, you know. I think people just do that because they think that that makes a situation more egregious. And so they're using it as like a talking point to try to convince or win some propaganda war against the right, which: they don't care. You know? The majority of the base of MAGA, the people that cheer on things like this are people who, you know--look at my comment section, you know?

LB: Yeah.

OW: Look at my replies. I mean, these are people that are like, um, yeah, “I don't care about the economic aspect of it. I want, I just hate Black people and I hate brown people and I want them to get out of my country,” you know?

LB: Well, and I also saw a lot, though--and I think this is what was sitting with me wrong this morning--I just was like feeling a lot of anger because a lot of the comments were along the lines of what, like, good liberals used to justify our system all the time. A lot of the comments were like, “Well, he wouldn't have been taken if he didn't do something to deserve it.”

OW: Yeah.

LB: But we don't actually acknowledge that the system is perfected to make sure there are things that someone like Jorge has done, you know, to get him taken from his family. Like that's--I just want to be real about it.

OW: Yeah. You're right to say it and I feel the same way.

LB: Do you have a voicemail you were wanting to share? You're getting a lot of calls while we're sitting here.

OW: No. I am getting a lot of calls while we're sitting here. So apparently this was. I mean, I could just like go through my voicemail and read some of them, but I don't know if I want to. Like, it's literally just racial slurs; homophobic slurs. “Something needs to be done about you.” Which is, you know. Sorry, where were we at?

LB: Well, maybe we can pivot to what can be done. Not in the context of what those folks want to happen to you, but in the context of what, what can normal folks and Iowa City do? What can the city council do? What are we expecting of other leaders and ourselves in our community right now?

OW: Yeah, so one thing that I’ve thought--I think in a lot of these conversations, I don't know, at these rallies and stuff, that I think it's always missing, is just kind of like--and I don't think the city is going to fund a campaign to educate people on this very, you know, quote unquote “radical political view.” But, just like put the situation into context of why people immigrate to the United States in the first place. Why do people travel so much, leave their homes and their loved ones and they're communities, to walk for hundreds of miles in dangerous conditions, pay potentially dangerous people to smuggle them, get on flimsy boats to cross the Mediterranean Sea to go to Italy. And it's a huge part of the conversation, that, you know, for one, the global South, their countries have been pillaged in and destroyed by us forever, you know, since quote unquote “Western civilization” met these countries, or met these areas that then we kind of like arbitrarily drew into countries, especially in Africa. People don't understand that like so much of what is happening and like, pick any country. Like in South and Central America, the United States or the UK or France or Portugal or, you know, like, they've played parts and just destroying and toppling countries when they try to gain a semblance of independence, a semblance of like real democracy and people power in their countries. You know, El Salvador; or the United Fruit Company destroying governments in Guatemalal the death squads in Nicaragua. Like it's, these things have like, permanent-, near-permanent lasting impacts on entire populations. So, people feel the effects of these things and then they're like, okay, well, up north, there's a place where our wealth and our stability was siphoned to. And I want to go to a place, take my family there. And so I think when people understand that being the part of the conversation, you know, I think it means that on a human level, we owe responsibility to doing what we can, not only to people who come here, but some type of reparations or what have you, I don't know what it would look like: to make people not want to leave their homes in the first place. So, I don't know. It really bothers me when that is left out of the conversation.

LB: Well, I think from my personal experience, when I talk with people who have chosen to come here, I think many white folks in our community, or Midwesterners in our community, presume that immigrants think they're coming to a place of just safety and bounty. And my experience in talking with people is much more like, no, that that isn't the perception. The perception is, “I must leave where I am because it is unsurvivable. It is untenable. It cannot be safe.” And when we think about how we approach folks in the community who have had to make that choice, right? And as you said, contextually in history, have made that choice because of actions of the U.S. Then it's like, well, what--I think it's easy to presume that folks maybe, like, were just uninformed and now they're here and made this choice and, you know, didn't realize. And so, they get whatever, you know, whatever they get they deserve as opposed to: Can we not meet people as--with the level of care for the choices that they had to make and the trauma that they've been through in a lot of cases.

OW: Yeah, 100%. And yeah, that's a lot of what I was saying: It's just understanding where people come from and just meeting them with baseline humanity and compassion. You would have done the same thing if your family was in the same situation.

LB: Right.

OW: Undeniably. So, yeah, I mean, centering that in the conversation is important to me. But I kind of derailed your “what we can do as a community?”

LB: Yeah. And I know you also, you talked with the city manager this morning about some ideas as well. So yeah, what do you think we should do?

OW: I mean, you know, I've gotten calls from, you know, some businesses from downtown, people eager to do something, have answers, be a part of a solution. And I love that energy and I'm glad people are doing that. First and foremost, you know, before even coming to the city, I think that for things like this: city governments and governments in general are just like not structured in a way where it is able to meet these needs, is able to combat these things in the most effective way. And it's going to take, um, creative and passionate, like community organizing, with your neighbors, to do a lot of the stuff that needs to be done. But as a city, I think that there are ways that, and, you know, that's the reason I won is like, I think the vast majority of the way we are going to get to the place we need to be in the world so we don't all die of climate catastrophe or in nuclear hellfire or something is we need to have a revolutionary change in the country to escape this economic system, capitalism. And I think that that is not going to happen through voting in the right people. You know, that's not what's going to happen. That doesn't mean you condone violence. It just means that there are ways not through official government channels to enact change or to force change. And that doesn't mean it has to be violent. That doesn't mean it has to be a war, to be bloodshed. And so. this is, I think, one of those situations where that type of organizing needs to happen. I mean, I'm seeing right now the general strike that happened in Italy in solidarity with Palestine. And we're talking some incredible work stoppages, protests, port workers refusing to service Israeli crafts, and their ultra right-wing prime minister basically has been forced to have a pro-Palestinian stance because of this groundswell of action from the working class. So, compare that with what's going on under our authoritarian government. I think people should look to examples like that and start to get creative in your own ways. You know, there are definitely labor unions here that I think could use some radicalization. There is a tenants’ union, there's Iowa City Mutual Aid. And with these types of organizations--and it takes a lot of organizing and hard work--but you can get to the point where you are a real force to be reckoned with and it is hard to deal with you. And you can force your hand as working class people to put an end to what happens. You know, if people start disappearing people in the community: what if the whole state of Iowa just would stop economically, then all of the capital interests that prop up our cruel and useless leaders like Governor Kim Reynolds would be forced to appease to capital and give capitulations. So, that's a long-winded way of saying, “be creative and do it yourself and look to history, for examples. But as a city, one thing I think that we can do is there are ways that we can facilitate that, right? Let's say there's a know your rights campaign. I think that's one thing that a lot of people have been wanting to do, and it's a tactic that has been proven to be effective of just, you know, it's not illegal. These are people's rights. And then, to say you don't have to talk to police officers in this situation, in this situation, you can do this. You don't have to open your door. This is what the correct warrant looks like. All of these things that can really help protect folks. And I think that as a community, we can throw resources behind a campaign like that that isn't just asking for a nonprofit that is already overworked and begging for money to do, you know? So that's one thing that we talked about. I don't know if I've been talking for a while. Sorry, Laura.

LB: No, it's--I see this is going to be, we'll have to figure this out as we go forward in our podcasting. But I do, I--just to make it a little more concrete, to bring it to what individuals and the city and the community could do in the context of the video that we all saw of what happened to Jorge at Bread Garden.

OW: Right.

LB: I do think, you know, in a moment like that, to talk about the legal context, to talk about what are what are people's rights and who has them and who can assert them, and when. And so of what I know or understand is: if there is not a judicial warrant, then, if a person is on private property, which the Bread Garden Market is, then someone with authority to exclude people from their property--just as they would someone who they felt like was being disruptive in another way—they could say, “Hey, you need to leave. You need to leave right now.” And I think we've all seen examples of that on the internet of very, very, very brave people in different workplaces, being willing to assert that right to say, “You are not welcome here and you need to go.” I think in, and what I saw a lot of at the rally today was these, you know, the posters that say, “ICE not welcome.” And I think local businesses can engage around that, right? Like they can learn that they have the right to demand a judicial warrant relating to a person who they know; or that person's identity-- you don't have to like, go out of your way to be like, “Is this person who they say is here actually that person?”

OW: Right.

LB: Like, you don't have that obligation. But to be able to say, yeah, you're not welcome or get out. We're not, we're not going to stand for this. A lot of what I saw and heard today, I think people would be very supportive of that.

OW: They would. Yeah. And people--it is scary in a situation where you're dealing with these thugs to like, tell them no. Right. You know? And I think people are at a point where they're willing to face that fear.

LB: Yeah.

OW: And I think we should we should help people get to the point where they feel comfortable doing that—to be as informed as they need to be so they don't have to second guess themselves. But yeah, that's just something that has come up. It's one of the first things I thought of for a way the city could do something.

LB: I was just going to take a minute for the legal context that we are in, because, in the questions of like, “What is the city going to do?” I got a couple of direct questions of what is the police department going to do? So, I think it's important for people to understand some of the context in which our police department and the city council are operating, which includes a state law that prohibits a policy of non-enforcement or discouragement, essentially. It's very, very broad. That law has not been challenged in court, but I don't have a lot of hope that it would necessarily be invalidated. But that law is saying we cannot have a policy of our police officers, let's say, helping folks who maybe are being taken into custody. That is definitely not something we can do. And we also can't ask officers to interfere or disengage. We maintain a philosophy and practice of cooperation with law enforcement at all levels, including federal agents. And what I've been saying to folks is: if our officers were on the scene in that moment, what I would expect them to do is to prevent bystanders from engaging and that that would be appropriate for their role. And so just to make sure, again, let's make sure we're talking about the real things because those questions about what our police should do really highlight for me how we've been socialized to think about problems, right? How we’ve been socialized to think about violence. How we've been socialized to think about help.

OW: You have a conflict, you call 911.

LB: Yeah.

OW: You get the police there, no matter what it is. And I think that that is, you know, if your neighbor's car is blocking your drive, what you're calling the police...You're calling people with guns to come and deal with it. And it's, like you said, it's just kind of this ingrained way in our society, currently, that we know to deal with conflict. People were calling the police to come help at Bread Garden, you know? Cops show up after the fact, and it's just not—interfering is just antithetical to what law enforcement is. And I think that's bad, you know? That's why I'm a known critic of law enforcement of the police because it is something that is designed first and foremost to act as the armed wing of the state. That no matter what the law is, no matter how obviously unethical something is, if it's the law, they do it in the vast, vast, vast majority of the times. You do not see police saying, “I can't, I quit.” You know, because it's just their job. And that sucks. But that is a structure that these people are put into.

LB: Yeah.

OW: So, I would like people to think long term. Like, if you want the police to go and fight with the federal agents to unarrest somebody, what would happen next?

LB: Yeah.

OW: Yeah. Not good things. And people like us who want a different--Laura and I have a different vision of public safety that does not involve incarceration or police.

LB: Right.

OW: It just doesn't compare. You know, it's not there. We are not going to be able to do anything in that situation, you know

LB: Yeah. And I think, you know, something I keep pushing for folks to do in general around--whether it's public safety or something like an incident like this where we need to respond—is to think holistically. I appreciate the context that you give that's like global, right. And historical. And I think the context I would urge people to look at is also maybe a little more narrow—

OW: Yeah. All valid.

LB: All valid. But something I see in the legal system is how every person--and this includes—so, I'm a practicing lawyer, and I am trained to do my job with what's in front of me and really not worry too much about the how we got here. Sometimes you worry more about what comes after because you might still be involved. But I know from talking with law enforcement officers that idea of “you do your job and then the next person in the chain of the system picks it up” is very intentional, right? And that prevents us from making choices about ethics or morality or exercising discretion in ways that might really, really reduce harm. Right? Because the cop says, “Well, I was just doing my job when I pulled this person over for something really minor; it's not my fault that that triggered a cascade because there was a warrant out. And so I had to arrest them, but their four year old child was in the car. So then DHHS had to get involved and the child had to be taken in to protective custody.” And then that person was in jail. Well, it's up to the prosecutor to decide what exactly gets charged. So, the cop doesn't have to worry about that. And then the prosecutor can say, “Well, the cop charged it this way, so I don't have to look behind that,” right? Like, I just take that at face value. And then it's not up to me if I'm a prosecutor to say what the judge is going to do, you know, and the judge is going to say, “Well, the prosecutor charged this. I could exercise discretion around whether this person gets to bond out or, you know…” whatever. And it's like all the way down the line: every person who's pulling a really significant lever of power when it comes to that individual's life, that's just been turned upside down and inside out, is trained to believe their actions are in their lane and don't really impact other parts of the system. And that is wrong. That is a myth. That is that is intended to keep us from realizing the power that we have. But I hope that folks look at that and understand that like every single decision, every choice, has implications throughout the entirety of this system because we are the system. It is humans all the way up, all the way down.

OW: Yep. And that's why one thing of slacktivism I do is I will call like Miller Meeks' office or like Joni Ernst’s office or some other, like, dipshit congressperson from Oklahoma or something. And their staff will answer and I'm just going to be like, “Hey, I'm just talking to you right now. Like, you don't have to work this job. You know, you don't have to serve this person who came out and said that, this, that, or the other thing. You know, this objectively evil thing. You can actually do anything you want. You have free will, as they say. You do.” And I think a lot of that goes into my belief that like, there are so many cogs within the machine that are essential. And it's about looking at that machinery and figuring out ways to be disruptive.

LB: How do those conversations go? Did you ever get someone who said they would be quitting their job?

OW: No.

LB: Oh.

OW: That's why I said it was “slacktivism” because I know it's futile.

LB: Ah, right.

OW: But, yeah, I don't know. It's an impossible problem. And it's very frustrating when people want like, you know, you are an elected official, you're a community leader, you're this, that, or the other thing, and they want like a blueprint for what they should do because they want to do something. And I feel like a lot of times people get disappointed when you give them the answer that there's no blueprint.

LB: It's all made up.

OW: It's all made up. And we can come together and get ideas going or I could come with an idea and then--because the cool thing about humanity is that we actually have to work together. No one person knows everything. And so people have different experiences. People have different skills. People have different weaknesses. And it's about coming together and figuring out what works for the community and for each other. Yeah, I don't know. Read Mutual Aid by Peter Keratkin. He talks lot about a lot about that.

LB: Okay, maybe we can end with: what are you—

OW: What time is it? Damn, okay.

LB: What are you reading right now?

OW: I'm reading The Stand by Stephen King.

LB: Nice. Nice. Is that escapism or is that...

OW: I would say it's escapism, even though it's like, oh, I'm escaping to this worse apocalyptic hellhole than the apocalyptic hellhole we're living in now. I don't know. I've put off reading Stephen King for so long.

LB: Oh, is this the first of his--?

OW: I've put off reading The Stand by Stephen King because I'm just not the biggest Stephen King fan. But the stand always seemed like the premise was cool, and I wanted to read it, but it's like, it's Stephen King, you know. I generally don't vibe with a lot of his work. I don't know. The way he writes characters…I finally just picked it up and I think I'm like 500 pages in and so far is so good. I don't know. There's some parts in there that I'm like, did you have to put that in? You know?

LB: Yeah. But I feel that way about every other word JRR Tolkien ever wrote, you know?

OW: Really?

LB: Yeah, sorry.

OW: Well, for me, it's, did you have to put that in, like, weird, gross internal thoughts of a person?

LB: Ah, I see.

OW: Whereas I love it when Tolkien puts in dumb bullshit about hobbits. You know, like, yes, I do in fact want to know that hobbits love mushrooms.

LB: Yeah. We really did need to hear more about Bill the Pony. Yes.

OW: Yeah, actually. We did. And then when they were reunited at the end, it was awesome.

LB: It was. And without all of that full back story, it wouldn’t have been as beautiful.

OW: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. But that's what I'm reading right now. I have, you know, I go through phases where I read fiction and then phases where I read non-fiction and theory and stuff like that, just so I don't get burnt out on either one.

LB: Do you read paper, or you listen, or?

OW: I do both. Yeah. I will read paper and then pick up where I left off with the audiobook if I'm like doing chores or something or running around town. People are like, how do you read that many books? And I'm just like, it's because I go hard. Yeah. You know?

LB: Yeah. That's good. So, I alternate. I have, like, my activism nonfiction is during my bicycle commute. Don’t worry, I only use one AirPod, so it's safe. Safer than it would be. So I get like 20 to 30 minutes a day.

OW: You're not supposed to use both AirPodss when you're driving--or when you're riding a bicycle.?

LB: Yeah, if I’m riding here, I need to hear if there's a car coming up behind me.

OW: Yeah, you're right.

LB: Transparency mode, I guess, would be okay. But, so I'm reading a book. I actually don't know the name of it [editor’s note: it’s Solidarity: The Past, Present, and Future of a World-Changing Idea], but it's about solidarity and it's really interesting. And I was going to make sure you knew about it because there's a section about public banking.

OW: Oh, yeah?

LB: Yeah, but they are like hypercritical of the North Dakota, South Dakota? the Dakota Bank.

OW: North Dakota, yeah.

LB: The North Dakota Bank.

OW: Interesting. Yeah, I'm sure that they could, you know, they're, like, the thing about public banking is that there's no one way to do it.

LB: No, and there's like 900 and some public banks in the world with like trillions, it's like 17% of all money held by banks is held by public banks.

OW: Yep.

LB: So that's a lot.

OW: Yeah, definitely.

LB: So that's cool. That was neat. Unhelpful that I don't remember the name of the book. But the fiction book--then I listen to fiction at night to fall asleep and it's usually apocalyptic science fiction, which these days is like just a playbook. It's kind of annoying.

OW: Yeah.

LB: Like, you know, especially the ones that have any kind of climate catastrophe. It's like, oh, yeah, this is this is why we need to be vegan, right? Like, this is why we need to do, you know, whatever.

OW: Everybody in the city is so lucky that I haven't gone full, full throttle with me being vegan.

LB: Yeah, we are very lucky. And I appreciate you reminding us of that consistently because it's true.

OW: It's very true.

LB: You can make our lives a lot more annoying.

OW: It could be very annoying. Yeah. with veganism. But I will tell you, you should go eat at Trumpet Blossom.

LB: Yeah, definitely. Oh, we have our work team meetings there. And it's just, it's beautiful. And it was really cool, a guy who served us yesterday and his name's Luke, super nice guy. And he's talking about his involvement with Corville city politics. And I was like, “Hell yeah!”

OW: That's Luke Ferguson.

LB: Oh, yeah?

OW: Yeah. I love Luke Ferguson. He's a skateboarder, drummer, plays in a band called Lipstick Homicide and good habits; look them up.

LB: Really?

OW: Yep.

LB: Wow.

OW: And the bass player in a band I play in, Boot Camp, is Molly, and that's Molly's partner.

LB: Oh, see? I love how small this town is. That makes me really happy.

OW: And Luke is like straight-up one of the nicest guys ever.

LB: He's so kind. Yeah.

OW: Yeah, 100%. What specifically is the book you're reading? For the apocalyptic fiction.

LB: Oh, well, I just finished the Left Hand of Darkness. That was the last Ursula Le Guin book I had to read, which you were the one who was like, “You should read this.”

OW: Whichever. I don't know what title it was.

LB: But yeah, so that was good.

OW: And Crazy that it was written in the 70s.

LB: Very cool that it was written in the 70s. I do love, like, science fiction that's, you know, 50 years old when it's so fucking relatable, right? It's a good reminder that humans are humans are humans are humans.

OW: It's like ,you were talking about gender this way in 1970?! That's crazy.

LB: Yep.

OW: I don't know. One of my all-time favorite books of all time. I would say I have two number ones, and one is The Silmarillion by JRR Tolkien. I read that like once a year.

LB: You are dedicated.

OW: Yeah, and I I love it.

LB: Is that like comfort food?

OW: Yeah, okay definitely. I mean, it is like instant endorphins when I'm like, open the book and just...

LB: That's really sweet.

OW: I'm a huge Fingolfin fan. When he fought Morgoth, it's just like the best. It's like the most badass shit of all time. So, read The Silmarillion. But also, Ursula K. Le Guin’s The Dispossessed. That changed my brain in chemistry when I read it as a teenager and then I read it again as an adult and then I was like, okay, this is like even more so changing my brain chemistry, like, just so fucking good.

LB: And really straightforward.

OW: Like when you know, when you know what it's about, right?

LB: Because I think that was the title that you first suggested to me. I was like, “Oh, yeah. It's just like, just says it!”

OW: Her imagination when it comes to what society could be like. And the clear and correct critiques of capitalism, but also noting that even after you change society, like, even though things are better, like you're never--it's still not a perfect society and it shows that both societies are flawed. People criticize her for being like, well, clearly you prefer the anarchist society. And it's like, well, duh.

LB: I also just felt like it was a very good sort of “grass is greener” analysis, right? Of how humans are always looking to the other side of something to be like, “Ah, I want that,” or I envy that or whatever.

OW: Yep. But I don't know. I couldn't recommend Ursula K. Le Guin, any of her books, to be honest. If you're into—

LB “Couldn't recommend them more?”

OW: Couldn't recommend them enough.

LB: Oh, got it.

OW: Sorry if I didn't make that clear. Yeah. The Earth Sea series. Yeah. That's like the only, like--I usually hate YA.

LB: One of those is missing from the Libby app.

OW: Really?

LB: Yeah.

OW: That sucks.

LB: I know. I went ahead and just skipped over it because I needed to finish the series, but I have an alarm--it'll tell me when they get it.

OW: I see. Yeah, they're really good. Okay. I'll stop punishing everybody about books now. Awesome.

LB: Well, yeah. Anyway, go to the Iowa City Public Library because it's a great resource.

OW: Yeah, I love the Iowa City Public Library. Go get a library card. There's so many cool events that they put on all the time, so keep up with the calendar.

LB: Yeah.

OW: Yeah. I don't know if there's anything that maybe you want us to address or talk about in the future? Hit us up. I don't know if we--hit one of us up. Our information's public.

LB: It is.

OW: It is. Don’t go to Libs of TikTok. You know, if I came across the Libs of TikTok, it could go either way. Yeah. It could be critiquing Democrats. Or it could be like a right winger. Yeah. It just happens to be, like, a Nazi that runs that account.

LB: Right.

OW: Right.. Yeah. Anyways.. Sweet.

LB: Well, thanks, Oliver. I'll talk to you again soon.

OW: Mm-hm.